Oppo-pinion: Nitrogen in tires a bunch of BS?

"505Turbeaux" (505turbeaux) 01/14/2014 at 11:02 • Filed to: None

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so I have numerous friends, none of whom are gearheads or know a damn thing about cars, showing up with green valve stem caps lately. I actually !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . One of my buddies actually has a leak and was bitching about how much it costs him to get it filled every week (vs fixing his corroded Volvo rim, typical). I have always advised people I know that with the older cars they are driving, this is not making a bit of difference. Anyone else here have the N bug, or have we decided it is crap?

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thebigbossyboss > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:04

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I have a nitrogen cap, but just fill it with regular air. It can confuse mechanics mounting tires from time to time.

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:06

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It's BS. The ads for these systems on autonews make me sick. They go something like: fill your customers tires up with regular air and they can top of at any gas station. fill them with Nitrogen and they have to come back in (so you can sell them on more service).

505Turbeaux > FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 01/14/2014 at 11:07

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my thoughts exactly

Jayhawk Jake > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:08

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Air is 78.09% nitrogen.

Nitrogen filled tires on a consumer car is the biggest scam of all time.

I guess I can see the value on something like a racecar where you are putting the tires through serious stress and heating the air inside to high temperatures, but even then I'm not entirely certain how it makes a difference chemically. I suppose the issue is moisture? I have no idea.

If it was free, I'd say go for it. Put nitrogen in your tires, it can't hurt. Paying for it? Stupid as hell.

Brewman15 > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:11

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Yeah, it's BS.

You have to remember typical air is ~70% nitrogen anyways. So, having that remaining 30% be nitrogen as well will only help a minimal amount in keeping the tire pressure constant at different temps (which is the whole argument behind nitrogen filled tires), but it's not worth the headache (and cost) of having to go to someone to get tires filled up vs. checking tires once a month and topping off as needed.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:11

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Seeing how air is about 73% nitrogen...

505Turbeaux > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 01/14/2014 at 11:14

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yup, no doubt. People are idiots, end of story

Grindintosecond > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:15

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Ferrari's peak of F1 science was a gas mix of chemicals that acted to transfer heat to and through the rim to cool the air in the tire.....if your tires are running 250 deg. F then yes nitrogen might help you alot but we dont! Nitrogen is crap.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:18

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I bought my tires from Tire Discounters, so they gave me the green caps. I was missing a cap anyways, so it's cool.

Mattbob > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:18

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It's a load of crap.

DConsorti > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:19

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You PAY for filling yor tire with nitrogen in US?

Is hard to find gas stations with a nitrogne pump to fill tires, but here in Brazil is free

(I think I found something that we pay less here!) LOL

Mattbob > Brewman15 01/14/2014 at 11:20

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nitrogen still changes pressure at different temps. PV=nRT son! Anyone who tells you it doesn't should be smacked.

CAR_IS_MI > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:20

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The dealer had "pre-installed" nitrogen in my tires when I bought the Jeep. $120 add on...

I like Nitrogen for certain applications.

Nitrogen is less susceptible to heat change, meaning tire pressure wont change as the tires heat up. This is great in racing applications.

Also, nitrogen is less likely to seep through the rubber than oxygen is. This means you will loose less pressure over time.

For a car you drive on the street, its useless.

For starters it is expensive and not readily available (you can't just fill up at the gas station or your home compressor).

The weight advantage is not noticeable. Yes, nitrogen is lighter than oxygen, but the oxygen content in 'air' is minimal (somewhere around 20%), and there is a good amount of nitrogen already in 'air'.

lastly, the tire pressure changes caused by heat on a normal, daily driven car, are so minor that the gains in mpg / tire wear seen by switching to nitrogen are negligible.

So the short version: If you are building a race car (one that will actually see the track) nitrogen is good. If you are daily driving, nitrogen is pointless.

505Turbeaux > DConsorti 01/14/2014 at 11:22

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you pay to fill your tires with regular old air here in the States at a gas station. There is exactly 2 places to go in my town for self serve free air. One a garage, the other a gas station. The rest are $1 for 4 minutes

505Turbeaux > CAR_IS_MI 01/14/2014 at 11:24

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exactly

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:24

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BS.

The air going into my tires is already close to 80% N2. So it runs through the air compressor in the garage and then goes into the tires.

A small story about the local tire shop, where I confirmed my initial suspicions of N2.

Two years back, my Z4 had worn completely through the inner side wall (That will teach me to check all surfaces of the tires). I got the car back home, and went around to the cheaper shops (Costco, etc). I then went to the local tire store near my house. I mentioned that I wanted Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my BMW, and no one had any in stock, so I would order from Tire Rack, and asked if they would be willing to install them.

They got them ordered and delivered next day, matched TR's price, and dropped most of the junk fees (Disposal, TPMS, etc).

They later also patched one of the old tires on the truck. I had put the spare on in my driveway, and just dropped the wheel off, and they patched it. For free.

So when I asked them once about N2 fill, they said "Yes, we offer it, but to be honest, you don't need it."

This is called Outstanding Customer Service.

McMike > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:28

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I was under the impression that Nitrogen has:

Less of a fluctuation in pressure with the change of temperature. The stability keeps the TPMS from coming on as often.

Larger molecules, which will help prevent it from leaking through the rubber.

Low humidity, which also helps stabilize the pressure in different temps (and may help with corrosion to the spendy TPMS sensors - guessing on that one)

Do I have any cars with Nitrogen? Probably not. At one point Mrs McMike's car came back with green caps, but I ignore it and just use my own air. Even if a tire shop or dealer offered me "free nitrogen fillups for life" I wouldn't do it.

As often as she picks up nails and debris, I am not driving across town to bleed and fill the tire I just patched. Fuck that.

I'm also not driving across town for 3-5psi when I check pressures.

Casper > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:30

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It makes a difference.... in a laboratory. If you had a super car setup with very precise calibrations made with very specific equipment, with perfectly selected wheels and tires, it would be something to make a slight difference over normal air. All that is happening is some engineer has decided he wants to reduce the variance due to impurities by going with a pure gas with a more predictable variance curve due to temps. For instance if I were lapping a GTR that was soaking a ton of heat into the tires, from a sales standpoint I might go for any little trick I could to help make the experience predictable and give me a 0.001% gain over someone else.

The sales aspect of it to the public is: Hey we have special gas for your tires, you might get better mileage (fractionally) and you will have a reason to come back here forever afterwards! If it wouldn't just escape rapidly they would try to sell people on helium because it would make the tires lighter...

I_AmDeath > Jayhawk Jake 01/14/2014 at 11:40

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Most shops just use a nitrogen tank after they mount it with air since the average tank can't pop beads up so it's still not 100% nitrogen. You need to suck out all of the air before reinflating the tire.

Drsweetdik > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:42

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My dad wouldn't believe me that this was all b.s.. He found out that his tires wore out just as fast, his mpg didn't improve, and his car rode the same.

Spend the money on a good tire gauge and keep your tires inflated properly.

505Turbeaux > Drsweetdik 01/14/2014 at 11:42

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true story

McMike > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 11:45

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I'm going to wait for Hydrogen

McMike > Grindintosecond 01/14/2014 at 11:49

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I remember that. The teams started using some sort of refrigerant-based chemical.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/other-ra…

Fucking brilliant. I wonder what color caps they used for that shit?

In fact, the gas used by Ferrari is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-based mixture designed specifically for use in racecar tyres, though not dissimilar in composition to gasses used in refrigerators, which are comprised entirely of hydrogen, carbon and fluorine.

A team headed by Andrea Seghezzi of Monza, Italy, in association with Gruppo Sapio developed the gas and subjected it to extensive track testing.

It was discovered that the HFCs were able to effectively conduct the heat generated during the rotation of the tyre to the wheel rim at a more or less constant pressure. The wheel rim then acts as a radiator, exchanging the heat with the outside air, maintaining a lower internal temperature and preventing it from overheating. This is particularly effective on aluminium or magnesium wheels.

Racing rubber inflated with air also suffers from the effects of some internal chemical interactions, which damage the structure of the tyre, and can result in a sudden drop in performance. Due to the high capacity for heat transfer, tyres inflated with the new gas mixture achieve excellent longevity, since the temperature of the tyre is kept low and the pressure is constant.

After extensive tyre testing the best blend of HFCs was found to be 52 per cent Tetrafluoroethane, 44 per cent Pentafluoroethane and four per cent Trifluoroethane. This mixture, known as HFC R404 A, was found to be most effective in a racing tyre when it was inflated with a blend of 50 per cent HFC R404 A and 50 per cent CO2.

Jayhawk Jake > I_AmDeath 01/14/2014 at 11:50

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So then it's even more pointless, because they are just topping off a tire with nitrogen. So in reality it's probably only like 85% nitrogen, if that.

Jayhawk Jake > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 01/14/2014 at 11:50

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78%

505Turbeaux > McMike 01/14/2014 at 11:53

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BOOM!

Jayhawk Jake > DConsorti 01/14/2014 at 11:53

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If it was free it wouldn't really be an issue. I mean, it'd still be pointless, but so what.

Here it costs money. I know that dealerships I've been to have charged $40-50 for it. When I bought my Kia it was on the sticker for the car, $50. I told them to take the $50 off because I didn't ask for or want the nitrogen fill, they tried to sell me on it. I pointed out that air is 78% nitrogen, and they took the charge off.

I_AmDeath > Jayhawk Jake 01/14/2014 at 11:57

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It's pretty useless unless they've invested in a 5000 dollar machine that does it properly.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/14/2014 at 11:58

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Whoa, people still offer customer service?!

DConsorti > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 12:09

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Dude... I'm not doubting you, but i find hard to believe that all of you are being charged for freaking air!!!!

Inumerous times, I stop at a station here just to calibrate my tires.. every week!!!

I better be carefull in July, when I'm gonna spend a week or two in Boston and NY

505Turbeaux > DConsorti 01/14/2014 at 12:10

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if I am still living in Portland, Maine, come up and have a day trip of it

Jayhawk Jake > I_AmDeath 01/14/2014 at 12:10

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But even then it's still totally useless

DConsorti > 505Turbeaux 01/14/2014 at 12:11

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thanks for the invite... Since I'll be traveling with the lady and her mother, I'll surelly try to escape at least one day!

davedave1111 > 505Turbeaux 01/15/2014 at 09:52

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For some reason no-one seems to know the real reason for filling tyres with nitrogen, but it has nothing to do with performance. It started because race teams commonly filled tyres from high pressure compressed-gas bottles, and nitrogen is cheapest.